I became an American citizen in 1974 after taking THE test (ie, citizenship). Best thing ever to happen to me and my greatest privilege by far. I check it everyday!
I’ve lived my whole life in western Europe - which is pretty nice! - but I can’t envision being worse off if I’d grown up in the USA, and more than likely much better off.
I love American culture from this distance. It really is the greatest country in the world. Nowhere else will come close any time this century. I simply cannot fathom how or why so many literate Americans are so negative about their homeland. I think that, unlike Razib, they simply cannot imagine anything else.
There's what Scott Alexander calls the demon/summoner problem. Many regard what you think of as America as a horrid nightmare that killed the America of their forefathers and is now wearing its corpse like a Halloween costume.
Was I the only one who didn’t remember you were ever cancelled and was curious enough to google it? In retrospect, it seems so banal, if not to say ironic. Gawker casting stones at glass houses!!!
Btw I subscribe for the podcasts, partly (mostly) because my vision is poor and save my eyes for knitting:)
An interesting thought experiment is what a devout Muslim of the same birthplace and year who remained behind would say about the luck of moving to America. Perhaps from his position in the old country, those whose parents' choices brought them helpless to the Great Satan can only be pitied. Life is short, but eternity is long.
How nice that you and your family had such good immigrant-experiences !
I am an immigrant too, but all I have ever been told was that I was not welcome, and that I should go back to where I came from, ASAP. I had no idea how unwelcome immigrants are in the US, especially if they come job-related. Had I known I never would have come. I lost everything and then some.
P.S. I have known several immigrant families who came here with a baby in their arms, a few weeks/months old. They started a business, worked hard, created jobs, paid taxes etc. But one day their child turned 21 years of age. And had to leave. No DACA possible, because they had come legally. Yes, a wonderful country, especially not for certain hardworking immigrants or immigrants like me who would have loved to work hard but were not allowed !
Imagine two scores: how welcoming a place is and how rich are the opportunities for those there. America is certainly not a 100/100 on those scores, but people are welcome to go anywhere they regard as scoring higher. The huge number of people trying to come here indicate the scores are pretty good by global standards.
The US immigration system is based on family reunion, not on bringing in needed workers. If you still try to get in that way - like my husband did after he was offered a job - you have to be willing to go to hell and back. And for the wives it is even worse. The system is sexist and racist.
That so many people currently try to get into another country - not just the US - only indicates how bad the situation is in many parts of the world. (Something we should be ashamed about.)
I assume you are an American because you have not understood one word of what I wrote.
I regret immigrating to "the country of opportunity" that declines to give even the smallest opportunity to people (women) in my visa category. For no reason, maybe to please voters.
It seems to me that your underlying premises are false. You assume that the immigration system should be rational in your terms; actually in a society with competing interests and ideologies what exists has an ugly stability. You think that because the system isn't congruent with the stated ideals it is a fraud; actually it has served the ideal for millions, including Mr. Khan and my father. Last, it appears that you hold that if persons are qualified to make a positive contribution they should be admitted; I don't agree that non-citizens should define the rules.
Most responders keep contributing general remarks of a philosophical nature. Showing they have hardly any/no knowledge about immigration regulation, the yearly statistics, etc. (And why would you - you already live - and work - in the US.)
I am talking about lives, lives of living breathing people. People who see that life ruined because of a disastrous system with antiqued rules, almost endless waiting times. E.g. Belgium is a country and so is India. And China.
Family reunion is preferred, not bringing in people who are needed for jobs. (Bytheway that right to family-reunion makes that people in some countries are waiting fifteen, twenty years. By the time they are allowed to come they must make a choice between their kids and their immigration.)
The US immigration system is broken. Just about very expert agrees with me on that one. The last time it was amended was in 1996, with anti-immigration regulation that caused much misery. A lot of dead migrants. A lot of illegal immigrants. Cartels taking over and making the rules. Coyotes basically dictating the US immigration system. They have only one "underlying premise" which is money and power, not the good of the USA. There are "competing interests and ideologies" in US society when it comes to immigration, you say. Indeed and they have held one another hostage, making impossible to come up with a better system, for ver 25 years already. If the US wants to keep its place amongst other powerful players in the world, it needs an updated immigration system ASAP.
I am not talking rational in "my terms". I simply would like to see a system that is in the best interest of the United States of America. And you know what ? That system would also in the best interest of would-be immigrants.
Yes, the system is not "congruent with the stated ideals" but for some reason politicians and pundits continue to pretend it does. E.g. every Prez in every State of the Union. That means many of us only realized the trap we after we had walked into it - although thanks to the internet nowadays most people are not as green as we were. (E.g. hardly anyone from W-Europe comes now on an H-1B visa, they come on L-1.)
Yes, about one million people a year come in legally. As said, no education, skills, expertise, required. No even command of the English language. These immigrants come in because it is the US citizens who have immigration rights (ad absurdum): the right to sponsor an Immediate Relative or Family Member. Green Card holders have limited rights too, for IR reunion only.
US employers can bring in a limited number of needed permanent workers (70,000/year). Then there is the Diversity Visa Lottery. And a limited number of asylum seeker/refugees are allowed in. That how you get to the legal One Million. Next to that the about One Million who come illegally, because jobs are waiting, but the system offers no immigration options for them.
Good for you that you and Mr. Khans father and Mr. khan himself, were the beneficiaries of the system - many years ago. And while you write that you do not even realize you are talking males-only ?! Furthermore are you so self-centered that you think a system must be good because you benefitted from it ? For others, the H-4/O-3's, the E-1's/E-2's with non-US both children, the system is simply bad beyond belief. We give up everything and are not allowed to have a life here. From being professional, working women, we are reduced to "handmaidens" in the US Republic of Gilead.
Furthermore, I did not say if persons are qualified to make a positive contribution they should be admitted (a system the U.K. currently experiments with). I said that persons admitted should be able to make positive contributions. That is something else completely.
And why should we, immigrants, paying taxes etc. all over the place not be allowed to voice an opinion about immigration regulation. And why should politicians drawing new regulation not listen to us and profit from our expertise.
Very good summary of the mess that our immigration law is. Options that I think both of us would support have been proposed, blocked by both Democrats and Republicans. Bush 43 put out a plan, Trump put out a plan (much what you describe). Perhaps where we differ most is that I don't believe that the US is particularly responsible for the lives and happiness of anyone other than the citizens of the US. As an individual I can sympathize with you. For policy, I rely on my elected representatives.
Your elected representatives, who for the past 25 years have achieved nothing. So you all look in horror at what is happening at US borders, overcrowding of towns and cities. Currently there is a shortage of workers, but that can quickly change in the (near) future. Then even more homeless in tents on sidewalks and at underpasses. If you call that "a policy" we can stop the discussion. And I have not even mentioned the illegal drugs brought in by the same cartels.
I do not need your sympathy. You bear no responsibility for my "happiness". But non-immigrants, especially the H-4's, do need US citizens to tell their representatives that the current system needs an overhaul. How many more Lyft/Uber drivers does this country need ? Stop Family Categories 3 and 4. You have in those categories enough people in the pipe-line for the next 10 - 12 years of visa-issuing. Why are you adding to the back-log ? Stop the Diversity Lottery, it is expensive and only breeds frustration and anger. Give needed workers/business people Green Cards immediately, just like you issue to Immediate Relatives. Stop the non-immigrant purgatory, it does not serve any purpose. (Unless you do not like well-educated women, especially from India.) When US companies say they still need high-level temporary workers, tell them to pay these workers at least $ 200,000/year (with benefits). Let's see how big the demand is when it has a price tag - for the employers.
You did not understand. This is about the U.S. pretending to be welcoming - even stating this in every State of the Union - but, after the immigrant has arrived, telling her she is not allowed to build a life.
You'll find that telling people on the internet what they do or do not understand wins no friends. A more skeptical and less compassionate observer than myself might begin to wonder if your lack of warm welcome here is at all related to your personality traits. I'm sure it's a coincidence, though.
As to the substance of your point, yes of course you're correct -- we even have a big statue with an inscription actively asking for the huddled masses of the whole earth. Wouldn't work out well if for instance the whole population of Africa moved here. Guess what - PR is always lies, and legacy Americans have been lied to at least as badly as you have been. With perhaps no exceptions, the 100,000 Americans who die every year of drug overdose were told at some point in middle or high school that their future was bright, they were the next generation of leaders, and they might someday be the President. Our graveyards are full of people whose outcomes experienced did not match the promises made.
Why is it wrong to tell somebody he/she did not understand something ? It is probably the result of what/how I wrote. I am not looking for friends here, I am looking for people who are interested in certain issues.
And no you did not get it (my bad) because you link my (perceived) personality to my immigration issues. While we are checked for a lot of things, no-one at the INS bothered to check our personalities. Also, I am not asking for a "warm welcome". I am asking for the right to start a life, to work, contribute to this society based on my skills, pay taxes/soc.sec, etc. Become part of the country I immigrated to. But my status did not even allow me to volunteer.
Based on your reasoning, about 75,000 immigrants, mainly from India, mostly women, have "wrong" personality traits. (Something Dem representative Ms. Homes implied on PBS years ago.) And we are not exactly huddled masses when we come. We are well-educated and it did not cost the US one cent.. All paid for elsewhere.
Yes, bad things happen to a lot of people, often good people. Such is life. So what we do not need is more misery, engineered by the US government for no reason at all. You can decide not to start doing drugs. But we cannot decide anything re. our status in the US. That is a fixed given.
The family came in a non-immigrant E-1/2 visa, issued to them for starting a business in the US. That visa can be extended as long as needed (basically for the rest of your life). But the E-1/2 does not allow "dual intent" meaning the holder cannot apply for a Green Card (permanent residency). To become an American you need to have lived for at least five years (in case of marriage to a US citizen three years) in the US. If you are not allowed to get a Green Card you can never naturalize. Had the baby not been born a bit early, or had the then-INS not lost/mislaid their file, delaying their procure - as they do - the kid would have been born in the US making them a citizen right-away. But this family was on non-immigrant visas and that meant he child had immigration-rights trough the parents. These rights stopped once the child turned 21. (In the end the whole family left not wanting to send their child to a foreign country all by themselves. The high-unemployment area where we lived lost two businesses and twenty full/part time jobs, as well as the taxes generated.)
Unless you marry a US citizen, this country prefers you not to come. I have been told this rather often. Not by right-wing voting, gun-toting USers - who often turn out to be nice people - but by Dem politicians.
I can tell many horror stories pertaining immigration.
I became an American citizen in 1974 after taking THE test (ie, citizenship). Best thing ever to happen to me and my greatest privilege by far. I check it everyday!
It's a pity that many who are born in the USA don't have your appreciation of the freedom this country offers. Thanks for the post.
I’ve lived my whole life in western Europe - which is pretty nice! - but I can’t envision being worse off if I’d grown up in the USA, and more than likely much better off.
I love American culture from this distance. It really is the greatest country in the world. Nowhere else will come close any time this century. I simply cannot fathom how or why so many literate Americans are so negative about their homeland. I think that, unlike Razib, they simply cannot imagine anything else.
There's what Scott Alexander calls the demon/summoner problem. Many regard what you think of as America as a horrid nightmare that killed the America of their forefathers and is now wearing its corpse like a Halloween costume.
Was I the only one who didn’t remember you were ever cancelled and was curious enough to google it? In retrospect, it seems so banal, if not to say ironic. Gawker casting stones at glass houses!!!
Btw I subscribe for the podcasts, partly (mostly) because my vision is poor and save my eyes for knitting:)
An interesting thought experiment is what a devout Muslim of the same birthplace and year who remained behind would say about the luck of moving to America. Perhaps from his position in the old country, those whose parents' choices brought them helpless to the Great Satan can only be pitied. Life is short, but eternity is long.
How nice that you and your family had such good immigrant-experiences !
I am an immigrant too, but all I have ever been told was that I was not welcome, and that I should go back to where I came from, ASAP. I had no idea how unwelcome immigrants are in the US, especially if they come job-related. Had I known I never would have come. I lost everything and then some.
P.S. I have known several immigrant families who came here with a baby in their arms, a few weeks/months old. They started a business, worked hard, created jobs, paid taxes etc. But one day their child turned 21 years of age. And had to leave. No DACA possible, because they had come legally. Yes, a wonderful country, especially not for certain hardworking immigrants or immigrants like me who would have loved to work hard but were not allowed !
Imagine two scores: how welcoming a place is and how rich are the opportunities for those there. America is certainly not a 100/100 on those scores, but people are welcome to go anywhere they regard as scoring higher. The huge number of people trying to come here indicate the scores are pretty good by global standards.
The US immigration system is based on family reunion, not on bringing in needed workers. If you still try to get in that way - like my husband did after he was offered a job - you have to be willing to go to hell and back. And for the wives it is even worse. The system is sexist and racist.
That so many people currently try to get into another country - not just the US - only indicates how bad the situation is in many parts of the world. (Something we should be ashamed about.)
I assume you are an American because you have not understood one word of what I wrote.
I regret immigrating to "the country of opportunity" that declines to give even the smallest opportunity to people (women) in my visa category. For no reason, maybe to please voters.
It seems to me that your underlying premises are false. You assume that the immigration system should be rational in your terms; actually in a society with competing interests and ideologies what exists has an ugly stability. You think that because the system isn't congruent with the stated ideals it is a fraud; actually it has served the ideal for millions, including Mr. Khan and my father. Last, it appears that you hold that if persons are qualified to make a positive contribution they should be admitted; I don't agree that non-citizens should define the rules.
Most responders keep contributing general remarks of a philosophical nature. Showing they have hardly any/no knowledge about immigration regulation, the yearly statistics, etc. (And why would you - you already live - and work - in the US.)
I am talking about lives, lives of living breathing people. People who see that life ruined because of a disastrous system with antiqued rules, almost endless waiting times. E.g. Belgium is a country and so is India. And China.
Family reunion is preferred, not bringing in people who are needed for jobs. (Bytheway that right to family-reunion makes that people in some countries are waiting fifteen, twenty years. By the time they are allowed to come they must make a choice between their kids and their immigration.)
The US immigration system is broken. Just about very expert agrees with me on that one. The last time it was amended was in 1996, with anti-immigration regulation that caused much misery. A lot of dead migrants. A lot of illegal immigrants. Cartels taking over and making the rules. Coyotes basically dictating the US immigration system. They have only one "underlying premise" which is money and power, not the good of the USA. There are "competing interests and ideologies" in US society when it comes to immigration, you say. Indeed and they have held one another hostage, making impossible to come up with a better system, for ver 25 years already. If the US wants to keep its place amongst other powerful players in the world, it needs an updated immigration system ASAP.
I am not talking rational in "my terms". I simply would like to see a system that is in the best interest of the United States of America. And you know what ? That system would also in the best interest of would-be immigrants.
Yes, the system is not "congruent with the stated ideals" but for some reason politicians and pundits continue to pretend it does. E.g. every Prez in every State of the Union. That means many of us only realized the trap we after we had walked into it - although thanks to the internet nowadays most people are not as green as we were. (E.g. hardly anyone from W-Europe comes now on an H-1B visa, they come on L-1.)
Yes, about one million people a year come in legally. As said, no education, skills, expertise, required. No even command of the English language. These immigrants come in because it is the US citizens who have immigration rights (ad absurdum): the right to sponsor an Immediate Relative or Family Member. Green Card holders have limited rights too, for IR reunion only.
US employers can bring in a limited number of needed permanent workers (70,000/year). Then there is the Diversity Visa Lottery. And a limited number of asylum seeker/refugees are allowed in. That how you get to the legal One Million. Next to that the about One Million who come illegally, because jobs are waiting, but the system offers no immigration options for them.
Good for you that you and Mr. Khans father and Mr. khan himself, were the beneficiaries of the system - many years ago. And while you write that you do not even realize you are talking males-only ?! Furthermore are you so self-centered that you think a system must be good because you benefitted from it ? For others, the H-4/O-3's, the E-1's/E-2's with non-US both children, the system is simply bad beyond belief. We give up everything and are not allowed to have a life here. From being professional, working women, we are reduced to "handmaidens" in the US Republic of Gilead.
Furthermore, I did not say if persons are qualified to make a positive contribution they should be admitted (a system the U.K. currently experiments with). I said that persons admitted should be able to make positive contributions. That is something else completely.
And why should we, immigrants, paying taxes etc. all over the place not be allowed to voice an opinion about immigration regulation. And why should politicians drawing new regulation not listen to us and profit from our expertise.
Very good summary of the mess that our immigration law is. Options that I think both of us would support have been proposed, blocked by both Democrats and Republicans. Bush 43 put out a plan, Trump put out a plan (much what you describe). Perhaps where we differ most is that I don't believe that the US is particularly responsible for the lives and happiness of anyone other than the citizens of the US. As an individual I can sympathize with you. For policy, I rely on my elected representatives.
Your elected representatives, who for the past 25 years have achieved nothing. So you all look in horror at what is happening at US borders, overcrowding of towns and cities. Currently there is a shortage of workers, but that can quickly change in the (near) future. Then even more homeless in tents on sidewalks and at underpasses. If you call that "a policy" we can stop the discussion. And I have not even mentioned the illegal drugs brought in by the same cartels.
I do not need your sympathy. You bear no responsibility for my "happiness". But non-immigrants, especially the H-4's, do need US citizens to tell their representatives that the current system needs an overhaul. How many more Lyft/Uber drivers does this country need ? Stop Family Categories 3 and 4. You have in those categories enough people in the pipe-line for the next 10 - 12 years of visa-issuing. Why are you adding to the back-log ? Stop the Diversity Lottery, it is expensive and only breeds frustration and anger. Give needed workers/business people Green Cards immediately, just like you issue to Immediate Relatives. Stop the non-immigrant purgatory, it does not serve any purpose. (Unless you do not like well-educated women, especially from India.) When US companies say they still need high-level temporary workers, tell them to pay these workers at least $ 200,000/year (with benefits). Let's see how big the demand is when it has a price tag - for the employers.
I understood everything you wrote and am no booster of America I can assure you.
You did not understand. This is about the U.S. pretending to be welcoming - even stating this in every State of the Union - but, after the immigrant has arrived, telling her she is not allowed to build a life.
You'll find that telling people on the internet what they do or do not understand wins no friends. A more skeptical and less compassionate observer than myself might begin to wonder if your lack of warm welcome here is at all related to your personality traits. I'm sure it's a coincidence, though.
As to the substance of your point, yes of course you're correct -- we even have a big statue with an inscription actively asking for the huddled masses of the whole earth. Wouldn't work out well if for instance the whole population of Africa moved here. Guess what - PR is always lies, and legacy Americans have been lied to at least as badly as you have been. With perhaps no exceptions, the 100,000 Americans who die every year of drug overdose were told at some point in middle or high school that their future was bright, they were the next generation of leaders, and they might someday be the President. Our graveyards are full of people whose outcomes experienced did not match the promises made.
Why is it wrong to tell somebody he/she did not understand something ? It is probably the result of what/how I wrote. I am not looking for friends here, I am looking for people who are interested in certain issues.
And no you did not get it (my bad) because you link my (perceived) personality to my immigration issues. While we are checked for a lot of things, no-one at the INS bothered to check our personalities. Also, I am not asking for a "warm welcome". I am asking for the right to start a life, to work, contribute to this society based on my skills, pay taxes/soc.sec, etc. Become part of the country I immigrated to. But my status did not even allow me to volunteer.
Based on your reasoning, about 75,000 immigrants, mainly from India, mostly women, have "wrong" personality traits. (Something Dem representative Ms. Homes implied on PBS years ago.) And we are not exactly huddled masses when we come. We are well-educated and it did not cost the US one cent.. All paid for elsewhere.
Yes, bad things happen to a lot of people, often good people. Such is life. So what we do not need is more misery, engineered by the US government for no reason at all. You can decide not to start doing drugs. But we cannot decide anything re. our status in the US. That is a fixed given.
Details please. How would that happen. The kid didn’t naturalized with the parents?
The family came in a non-immigrant E-1/2 visa, issued to them for starting a business in the US. That visa can be extended as long as needed (basically for the rest of your life). But the E-1/2 does not allow "dual intent" meaning the holder cannot apply for a Green Card (permanent residency). To become an American you need to have lived for at least five years (in case of marriage to a US citizen three years) in the US. If you are not allowed to get a Green Card you can never naturalize. Had the baby not been born a bit early, or had the then-INS not lost/mislaid their file, delaying their procure - as they do - the kid would have been born in the US making them a citizen right-away. But this family was on non-immigrant visas and that meant he child had immigration-rights trough the parents. These rights stopped once the child turned 21. (In the end the whole family left not wanting to send their child to a foreign country all by themselves. The high-unemployment area where we lived lost two businesses and twenty full/part time jobs, as well as the taxes generated.)
Unless you marry a US citizen, this country prefers you not to come. I have been told this rather often. Not by right-wing voting, gun-toting USers - who often turn out to be nice people - but by Dem politicians.
I can tell many horror stories pertaining immigration.