I think that many people, including Shadi, over-estimate Israel's power here. Most of Israel's weapons are not useful in this context.
Consider a tank. It cannot be used to make precision strikes, which is why Israel is begging Gazans to move south. It can be taken out by a single soldier using an inexpensive shoulder-fired missile, so it is not clear that you even want to risk taking tanks into Gaza.
Finally, there is the appeal of the ideology that wishes to shed Jewish blood, as shown by the many large demonstrations of support for Hamas around the world. Does it matter whether Israel defeats Hamas or not? Regardless, will those who lust for genocide of Jews keep trying until they succeed?
Great conversation as usual. I actually thought it would be a bit more contentious, but I think everyone involved kept the big picture in mind despite their differences of opinion. I wish I could say the same for a lot of the discourse and think pieces I’ve seen since last weekend. I’m not at all an expert on the topic but I agree that it’s not necessarily helpful to view this as too complicated for the average person to opine on. Nor is it helpful to reduce it to a conflict over “settler colonialism “ or any of the other reductive concepts that are applied by both sides.
Personally, I don’t see any real change happened unless one of two things happen. One option is to forcibly remove or kill all or most of the Palestinians, and this to me would be an absolutely unconscionable solution. So that leaves the option of breaking with the paradigm that has been embraced by the west for the better part of a century, that of almost unilateral and unquestionable support for Israel in favor of a pluralistic society that upholds the humanity of both Israelis and Palestinians and acknowledges their shared historical inheritance to that land. I know that sounds a lot naive and unrealistic especially after recent events but to me it seems like some version of this option is the only humanitarian solution
Yes, you are not an expert on the topic and your naivete and unrealism could be greatly reduced if you knew a little more. Coleman Hughes has just released a new podcast that will help you in this regard.
If you’re talking about the one with Benny Morris, I watched it, found it useful, but I don’t think it refutes the point I’m making. That is, a commitment to human rights necessitates an opposition to collective punishment and ethnic cleansing, whether done by Hamas or the Israeli government.
No, the episode I referred to is with Andrew Gold and much more recent. Your implication that Israel wants to inflict collective punishment and ethnic cleansing is just plain wrong. Israel would greatly prefer if the terrorists didn't use fellow Palestinians as human shields. It's Hamas who are indifferent to suffering of Palestinians - how many times must their leaders baldly state this before people of your ilk believe them? Please watch Coleman's latest - it soundly refutes your conclusion with accurate history and intelligent analysis.
I’m not making a defense of Hamas here. I believe what you say about them is largely correct, that they do use human shields and engage have certainly engaged in collective punishment towards Israeli civilians in this recent attack. But cutting off water and utilities to a region of 2 million people, half of whom are children, thereby making it impossible for the one hospital there to treat the people wounded by Israel air strikes is certainly an act of collective punishment. So it is clear to me they have engaged in this as well,although reasonable people can certainly disagree over whether their actions constitute ethnic cleansing.
Journalist Justin Ling took a step away from the heat and published an interesting question, "Can Terrorism be Resistance?" which looks into whether terrorism works as an effective political strategy. I personally found it very helpful because in my opinion, it's what we need to be thinking about, over and above the history, hatreds and tit-for-tat responses.
Thanks for recommending that, a very well argued piece. To me it seems like the bin Laden comparison is apt here-9/11 certainly didn’t help anyone suffering from US imperialism in Iraq or Afghanistan, just as Hamas actions last week will likely bring nothing but massive suffering to Gaza. I’ve heard a few Palestinian activists complaining that they felt they were just starting to get Westerners to come closer to their side, and now of course that looks less likely. It was also interesting to read in his article about the early Israeli paramilitary terrorist groups and how they were largely counterproductive as well. I can understand on some level the expression of violence from people who have little other political power. But it’s clear that what happened on Oct 7 was so horrific that it justifies for many people the dehumanization of Palestinians, and will therefore only add suffering on top of more suffering. Seems like another version of a sad human drama that’s sadly been playing out for a long, long time.
The pro Palestinian chap of course like they always do, wants you to not look at the history of Islam and how it's been doing in modern times. They are the rape and grooming gangs and England, the 1200 women who are raped in Cologne Germany and one New Year's Eve. the countless crimes of Isis and the mess in Malmo Sweden where the various Muslim immigrants have gone to war with each other sooner versus Shiite Etc. complete with hand grenades and such. One has to make a distinction between the many groups of Muslims mainly not from the Middle East who are quite sane and reasonable like those in Indonesia and Malaysia. . Monotheism is a large part of this it's just a mess I recognize that when I was about 9 years old.
My dream would be for all the Israelis to basically come to United States the same sense after Thorough vetting send most of the militant Muslims back to the Middle East they could live in the place that is vacated by the Jews.
If Europe is going to have a chance of remaining civilized it's going to have to send North Africans and Arab Muslims back to whence they came (or a safe alternative) There's plenty of land and potential for displaced Muslims in the Middle East if the affluent countries gave a damn but they don't. Think what great cities could be built with the help of Saudi Arabia Bahrain and the other nations.
. It amuses me that a columnist for Washington a ultimate Lefty would like to canceled to have more compassion. whoever the media totally is controlled by the left with a few exceptions so they're pogrom against the non-woke will continue unabated.
One has to make a distinction between the many groups of Muslims mainly
not from the Middle East we're quite sane and reasonable like those in Indonesia and Malaysia. There's plenty of land and potential for displaced Muslims in the Middle East if the affluent countries gave a damn but they don't. Think what great cities could be built with the help of Saudi Arabia Bahrain and the other nations.
Interesting discussion as always, thanks. For anyone who hasn't listened already, the recent Special Place in Hell podcast episode on this topic was really good too.
at 1:08 I can't really agree that Russia vs Ukraine is black and white
I think that many people, including Shadi, over-estimate Israel's power here. Most of Israel's weapons are not useful in this context.
Consider a tank. It cannot be used to make precision strikes, which is why Israel is begging Gazans to move south. It can be taken out by a single soldier using an inexpensive shoulder-fired missile, so it is not clear that you even want to risk taking tanks into Gaza.
Finally, there is the appeal of the ideology that wishes to shed Jewish blood, as shown by the many large demonstrations of support for Hamas around the world. Does it matter whether Israel defeats Hamas or not? Regardless, will those who lust for genocide of Jews keep trying until they succeed?
Great conversation as usual. I actually thought it would be a bit more contentious, but I think everyone involved kept the big picture in mind despite their differences of opinion. I wish I could say the same for a lot of the discourse and think pieces I’ve seen since last weekend. I’m not at all an expert on the topic but I agree that it’s not necessarily helpful to view this as too complicated for the average person to opine on. Nor is it helpful to reduce it to a conflict over “settler colonialism “ or any of the other reductive concepts that are applied by both sides.
Personally, I don’t see any real change happened unless one of two things happen. One option is to forcibly remove or kill all or most of the Palestinians, and this to me would be an absolutely unconscionable solution. So that leaves the option of breaking with the paradigm that has been embraced by the west for the better part of a century, that of almost unilateral and unquestionable support for Israel in favor of a pluralistic society that upholds the humanity of both Israelis and Palestinians and acknowledges their shared historical inheritance to that land. I know that sounds a lot naive and unrealistic especially after recent events but to me it seems like some version of this option is the only humanitarian solution
Yes, you are not an expert on the topic and your naivete and unrealism could be greatly reduced if you knew a little more. Coleman Hughes has just released a new podcast that will help you in this regard.
If you’re talking about the one with Benny Morris, I watched it, found it useful, but I don’t think it refutes the point I’m making. That is, a commitment to human rights necessitates an opposition to collective punishment and ethnic cleansing, whether done by Hamas or the Israeli government.
No, the episode I referred to is with Andrew Gold and much more recent. Your implication that Israel wants to inflict collective punishment and ethnic cleansing is just plain wrong. Israel would greatly prefer if the terrorists didn't use fellow Palestinians as human shields. It's Hamas who are indifferent to suffering of Palestinians - how many times must their leaders baldly state this before people of your ilk believe them? Please watch Coleman's latest - it soundly refutes your conclusion with accurate history and intelligent analysis.
I’m not making a defense of Hamas here. I believe what you say about them is largely correct, that they do use human shields and engage have certainly engaged in collective punishment towards Israeli civilians in this recent attack. But cutting off water and utilities to a region of 2 million people, half of whom are children, thereby making it impossible for the one hospital there to treat the people wounded by Israel air strikes is certainly an act of collective punishment. So it is clear to me they have engaged in this as well,although reasonable people can certainly disagree over whether their actions constitute ethnic cleansing.
Journalist Justin Ling took a step away from the heat and published an interesting question, "Can Terrorism be Resistance?" which looks into whether terrorism works as an effective political strategy. I personally found it very helpful because in my opinion, it's what we need to be thinking about, over and above the history, hatreds and tit-for-tat responses.
Thanks for recommending that, a very well argued piece. To me it seems like the bin Laden comparison is apt here-9/11 certainly didn’t help anyone suffering from US imperialism in Iraq or Afghanistan, just as Hamas actions last week will likely bring nothing but massive suffering to Gaza. I’ve heard a few Palestinian activists complaining that they felt they were just starting to get Westerners to come closer to their side, and now of course that looks less likely. It was also interesting to read in his article about the early Israeli paramilitary terrorist groups and how they were largely counterproductive as well. I can understand on some level the expression of violence from people who have little other political power. But it’s clear that what happened on Oct 7 was so horrific that it justifies for many people the dehumanization of Palestinians, and will therefore only add suffering on top of more suffering. Seems like another version of a sad human drama that’s sadly been playing out for a long, long time.
The pro Palestinian chap of course like they always do, wants you to not look at the history of Islam and how it's been doing in modern times. They are the rape and grooming gangs and England, the 1200 women who are raped in Cologne Germany and one New Year's Eve. the countless crimes of Isis and the mess in Malmo Sweden where the various Muslim immigrants have gone to war with each other sooner versus Shiite Etc. complete with hand grenades and such. One has to make a distinction between the many groups of Muslims mainly not from the Middle East who are quite sane and reasonable like those in Indonesia and Malaysia. . Monotheism is a large part of this it's just a mess I recognize that when I was about 9 years old.
My dream would be for all the Israelis to basically come to United States the same sense after Thorough vetting send most of the militant Muslims back to the Middle East they could live in the place that is vacated by the Jews.
If Europe is going to have a chance of remaining civilized it's going to have to send North Africans and Arab Muslims back to whence they came (or a safe alternative) There's plenty of land and potential for displaced Muslims in the Middle East if the affluent countries gave a damn but they don't. Think what great cities could be built with the help of Saudi Arabia Bahrain and the other nations.
. It amuses me that a columnist for Washington a ultimate Lefty would like to canceled to have more compassion. whoever the media totally is controlled by the left with a few exceptions so they're pogrom against the non-woke will continue unabated.
One has to make a distinction between the many groups of Muslims mainly
not from the Middle East we're quite sane and reasonable like those in Indonesia and Malaysia. There's plenty of land and potential for displaced Muslims in the Middle East if the affluent countries gave a damn but they don't. Think what great cities could be built with the help of Saudi Arabia Bahrain and the other nations.
Interesting discussion as always, thanks. For anyone who hasn't listened already, the recent Special Place in Hell podcast episode on this topic was really good too.
Looking forward to listening to this one.
I really wish there would be a transcript. I'd much rather read than listen.
i don't do transcripts for free podcasts because i don't want them to be searchable.
I understand. It's just that I read much faster than people talk.
Why don't you want free episodes to be searchable? You could reserve the transcripts for subscribers.